Burgos - Spain - wielrennen - cycling - radsport - cyclisme -  Tom Dumoulin (Team Giant - Alpecin)  pictured during La Vuelta 2015 Stage 17 from Burgos to Burgos - ITT - Induvidual Time Trial - photo IB/LB/RB/Cor Vos © 2015
  • jules

    Quintana does a mean TT. I’m still hoping for a Purito victory – he deserves one.

    • Michele

      The good thing is Jules, Purito has his Achilles’ Heel out of the way now [so much better than making the TT the penultimate stage].

      So you know he is going to attack on these last 3 mountain stages and give it his all. I don’t think he’ll ride to defend a good GC position – he has enough of them now.

      I would love to see him win one as well. It’s a slim chance; pity one of the remaining stages wasn’t a summit finish.

      • jules

        it could be an interesting finish.. I haven’t paid that much attention to the Vuelta until now

      • Neuron1

        Since nobody is willing to ask the question, I will. How is an 80 kg time trialist able to hang with some of the best climbers in the world on 5000 meter elevation change days? I’ve read that he lost 8 kg this season but hasn’t lost any power. That means he lost 8 kg of fat. That would have made him at 15+% body fat, assuming that he is at 5% at present, and riding in the pro peloton. Now if he was climbing like this but lost some his TT prowess I would maybe believe it, but I’m sorry this is BS and there is something fishy here. If his name ended in a vowel or he rode for certain teams there would be an uproar.

        Second, it seems that the Dutch teams have said that they will be assisting Dumoulin the rest of the race. I was under the impression that this is forbidden. Lets see how the race organizers and UCI deal with this. Answer: they won’t.

        • jules

          he’s listed as 71kg on Wikipedia and has some strong results in his short career. at 24, he’s got a ‘right’ to be improving. you haven’t proved he’s doping with such a simple analysis. as usual though, you haven’t disproved it either.

          • Neuron1

            Not saying, just being appropriately cynical of new superstars and people who perform outside of their usual parameters. BTW have any of the other TT guys been hanging with the skinnies?

            • jules

              someone has to win. and TTs are about more than putting on bulk muscle. wind tunnel testing, working on your position, flexibility, core strength – putting in the hard yards pays off. some of the world’s best climbers have historically been infamous for refusing to do that. there’s too many variable to head straight to doping as an explanation, as large as it looms.

              • Neuron1

                Funny, when Aru was kicking butt at the Giro he didn’t have a right to be improving.

                • jules

                  says who? the major cause of suspicion for Aru is the team he’s on and their attitude towards doping.

                  Giant-Alpecin rose from the ashes of Rabobank and do not appear to have the same attitude. (usual caveats)

                  • Neuron1

                    Read the ISSUL report and than you can talk about it. They said Astana was disorganized but not intentionally deceitful and that the riders at greatest risk were those living and training in the former Soviet block countries, not the European based riders. You might want yo look up where former Postal riders from the bad old days are DS’s now. Might be enlightening.

                    • jules

                      i didn’t say Aru is a doper. you introduced Aru :)

                    • Neuron1

                      Just read back to TSP article defending Greg Henderson and his accusations. This page was rife with innuendo about Aru and all of Astana. Once again, all I’m looking for here is consistency of skepticism and thought. If Dumoulin is all natural I applaud his achievements and look forward to many great years of him taking on Froome, Nibali, Quantana, Valverde etc. I will whole heartedly root for the best to win, but rift now I’m a little baffled by the newfound abilities.

                    • jules

                      I’m very skeptical. I don’t claim to know who is doping or not. It was you who came on and started blasting Dumoulin. I’m not saying I know he’s clean, but I don’t know he’s dirty either. My general view is – we just don’t know – I don’t give much credence to these attempts to calculate a rider’s ‘doping index’ by whether his DS said he’s kept his power and lost weight, etc. It’s too simplistic.

                  • Neuron1

                    I believe that Katusha lost their WT license in 2012. It was only reinstated by the CAS.

                    • Dave

                      Which meant that they never lost it in the first place. I believe the judgement included compensation for the lost income from the races in which they were illegally suspended.

                      The problem then (and now) is that the UCI does not have rules they can enforce to legally kick out a team – they are too woolly and open to manoeuvring. The reason that Cookson didn’t try to revoke Astana’s licence was that the UCI wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on when it was appealed.

                      Things are a bit better now, in that there is the new (for 2015) rule that a team is suspended when they get a second positive in a rolling 12 month period. This rule is clearly defined and measurable, and as seen with the Androni Pro-Conti team it works – we haven’t heard of them since and I expect the team will formally fold at the conclusion of the season.

                  • Dave

                    Giant-Alpecin is the descendent of Skil-Shimano, not Rabobank/Blanco/Belkin/LottoNL-Jumbo.

                  • MMAster

                    Lotto Jumbo rose from the ashes of Rabo/Belkin…Giant evolved from Skil/Argos

                • Michele

                  Can I ask Nueron1 – is the crutch of the issue that a Dutch rider [with support from other Dutch riders] can win a GT without any suspicion levelled against him, whilst an Italian riding for Astana can’t do anything without being called a doper?

                  All I would say is that if Tom Dumoulin rode for a team that had as many doping infractions as Astana did then the boards would be rife with accusations.

                  • Neuron1

                    The Dutch were the first country, via the Rabobank team to purchase a Sysmex machine and perform blood tests on all of their riders prior to major competitions. Rabobank is now Lotto-Jumbo after having been Belkin. I believe Steve Kreiswck (sp) rode for them. Denis Menchov rode for them and won, as did Michael Rasmessuen. He said the entire team was corrupt fro top to bottom. Yeah, the Dutch are beyond reproach. The two positives from the Astana the were the brothers, one of whom had only recently been brought up to the WT level. The others were the conti level riders.

                    • Michele

                      But most importantly .. Aru is riding for team that nearly lost it’s place on the WT.
                      Again, I am pretty certain that if Team Giant – Alpecin had faced similar scrutiny from the UCI for doping infractions, then the suggestive posts levelled against Astana and it’s riders, would also be made against Giant and it’s riders.
                      That is the difference.

                    • Neuron1

                      Please refer me to one of the “name brand” riders on Astana that was recently under suspicion. Not the past, now. When we get beyond the distant past, which is just a few years in cycling history there is no recent issue. BTW I think that Cookson had it in for Astana from the beginning of his presidency for several reasons, not the least of which is that they bring as much money to the sport as Team Sky and are a threat to their hegemony of the peloton. Just happens to be the team his son works for. He got his head handed to him by the ISSUL report when it didn’t show practically any of the things of which the team was accused.

                      Great back and forth here tonight. No personal attacks just friendly banter.

                    • Michele

                      There is none … but:
                      Keep in mind that the criticism against Astana was heaviest just after we learnt they would keep it’s place on the WT. So when Landa and Aru were performing so well at the Giro, most of the comments directed at them were because of the [perceived or otherwise] injustice that Astana were riding in the first place.

                    • Neuron1

                      But it wasn’t an injustice that they were riding. It would be an injustice to portray all the riders as being dirty when very few actually were and to keep them from competing. One must be very sure before the death penalty is metted out.

                  • 42x16ss

                    I suspect that it’s more to do with a certain Brit (or two) ;)

              • Neuron1

                He beat other very good TT guys by more than a minute. Procycling stats lists him currently at 69 kg, his DS said he was 81 kg last year. That’s even more than what I thought. 12 kg and no change in power. The DS didn’t say power to weight, he said power.

                • jules

                  DSs say all sorts of things for different reasons.

                • Michele

                  Tom when he weighed 81 kgs:

                  http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Le+Tour+de+France+2013+Stage+Nineteen+J0h4A7UNqZMx.jpg
                  Tom when he weighed 69 kgs [or 15 % less]: see above.

                  • Neuron1

                    You can’t maintain absolute power while losing weight if you lose muscle mass. Thus it had to come from somewhere. the body compartments are water, bone, dry mass and fat. Since he didn’t lose bone, and we assume he is normally hydrated, he could have only lost fat or muscle. Since his absolute power remained the same we can logically assume he lost overwhelmingly fat. Thats a lot of fat on a pro cyclist.

                    • Michele

                      But again Nueron1, you are basing fact on hearsay and innuendo.
                      We do know that Tom weighed 81 kgs. We do not know that he now weights 69/71. We do not know how much his power output has changed.
                      Piecing together stats from a Wikipedia page, or a comment from a DS about Power output [how do we not no Tom’s DS wasn’t actually referring to Power to Weight ratio?].
                      We just don’t know.

        • Michele

          I have read that the earth is flat and that man never landed on the moon.

          I don’t know the answers to your questions .. but if you’re right with your stats on his weight, you are saying Tom Dumolin weighed 88 kgs before he lost 8 kgs.

          Now Tom is 185 cm tall, so his BMI would be nearly 26%. Not many overweight cyclists in the pro peloton.

          Jules states that Wikipedia has his weight at 71 kgs. Pro Cycling stats has it at 69 kgs.

          Point is, numbers get bandied around quite a bit, and I don’t think anyone really knows.

          • Neuron1

            I read he was down to 81 kg. Probably less by now.

            • Michele

              Well, even if he was now 81 kgs, his BMI would still be 24, which isn’t far off being called overweight.

              I have no idea how much he weighs [69 kgs / 71 kgs], but there is no way he is weighing in the 80s.

            • jules

              no way. I’m about that weight, and I’m a fair bit taller than he is. looking at the title photo of him in this thread, he’s a lot leaner than me. 71 more like it.

          • Neuron1

            BMI for athletes is very inaccurate due to the very low fat and high proportion of muscle. Just not a great measure for this application.

            • Michele

              True .. that’s why I call myself a professional athlete then :)

              • Neuron1

                Great answer, LOL.

          • Albert Einstein

            If someone can finish a pro race weighing 90kg with a BMI of 26, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same rider smashing most others on climbs when they’re trimmed down to approx 70kg.

        • Sean

          He is a single cm shorter than froome and about 4kg heavier, i’m not surprised he can ride toward the front on all but the hardest MT top finishes.

          • Neuron1

            I’m looking forward to Fabian Cancellera and Peter Sagan being reborn as a mountain goats. Won’t that be a sight to see. Hey Pete and Fabs, just lose a few kilos and you’ll be contending for the podium in Grand tours. Humor intended.

            • jules

              why not?

              • Dave

                If there was a course like this Vuelta then I don’t see why Sagan couldn’t have a decent shot at winning a GT some time down the track once he’s a more mature rider – don’t forget that he’s still in the U25 category this year so he has plenty of growing up still to come.

                The finishing climb on the last road stage was rated as Especial (i.e. Spanish version of HC), but was only 6.8 kilometres long! At the Tour de France it would have been a Cat 1 or Cat 2 climb, certainly not HC.

                • Neuron1

                  It was a combination of the gradient and the point during the stage when it occurred. Thus, I guess they thought it warranted an HC rating.

                  • Dave

                    I still call BS on it. Sure, it had a couple of short ramps at 20-21%, but it also had a few flats which was how Dumoulin was able to hang on. Still a mere pimple compared to a climb like the Col du Croix de Fer, and good evidence that this year’s Vuelta is not one for the pure climbers.

                    The way you deal with it coming at the end of the stage is by awarding double points at the top, not by whoring out the Especial/HC rating.

                • Robert Merkel

                  At 11.1% average. Tell you what, you go ride up it and I’ll ask you at the top whether it deserves an Especial/HC rating.

                  It might be shorter than most HC climbs but you’ll if you’re racing, you’ll be on the rivet the whole way up because there’s no draft on a climb this steep. There *are* no climbs of this combination of length and gradient in the Tour, so it’s an open question how it would be rated.

                • Michele

                  Good point re Sagan.
                  Peter came out post Tour of Cali saying he didn’t know he good hurt his body so much [or words to that effect].

              • Neuron1

                Then we would lose out on Sagan imitating the Hulk and taking the green jersey every year until he retires.

                • Dave

                  I would seriously like it if he took both the points and GC wins in the same GT.

                  • Neuron1

                    Maybe they would resurrect the multi-paneled jersey like Hinault used to get.

                    • Dave

                      The Vuelta still has a Combination classification jersey (instead of the U25 GC jersey that the Tour has – men’s races may have no more than four leaders’ jerseys), which Rodriguez is currently leading. No obscene multi-coloured jersey though, it’s just a white one.

                      Peter Sagan being Peter Sagan, it would probably happen unofficially on the last day of the race anyway.

                    • Jack

                      annoying, do not play for judge without evidence

                  • Michele

                    Would be brilliant. The Tour should throw up a parcours every few years that would give a rider of the likes of Sagan a chance to winning.
                    Heck, Sean Kelly 4 x top 10 finishes at the Tour and won the Vuelta.

            • Michele

              Eddy Merckx was one of many pundits who suggested that Tom Boonen [when he was at his peak] could win a Grand Tour: provided the parcours wasn’t too difficult.

              Fabian … too late now.

              But why not Sagan? If the course wasn’t too difficult I reckon he could top-10. This year’s race shows you how strong he is. As did the Tour of Cali.

              Interestingly, Brad McGee rode with a weight / height that is very similar to what is being suggested for Tom. Sure, he got in a break that helped, but he still came 8th in the 2004 Giro – in an Olympic year nonetheless.

              That year’s course wasn’t extremely difficult, but there were a few dopers who finished above him.

              Before he had his sciatic nerve issue, he thought he could finish top-10 at the 2005 Tour.

              All this from a guy who professed – and no one has disputed – rode clean.

        • Larry @CycleItalia

          He’s listed as 68 kg at 1.85 meters here http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/Tom_Dumoulin while Velonews claimed he was 5’8″ and 154 lbs. Seems he’s kind of like a Dutch BigMig, but without the BIG? If the climbers (and I’d like to see Aru win) can’t get far enough ahead of this guy in the mountains to avoid being steamrollered in the chrono, whose fault is that?

        • John_Irvine

          Just as surprising to me were Aru and Quintanas TTs.

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  • Michele

    Not sure about that LA film. Actually I am – these 2 scenes confirm what I saw in the Preview. Rubbish.

    Ben Foster does a pretty good crazy eyes [3:10 to Yuma is a great example]. But he’s got nothing on Lance.

    And the interview between Walsh and Armstrong? I’m just hoping Richard Ayoade plays Pierre Ballester. Might make it a little bit more interesting.

    • Chris

      “I’m just hoping Richard Ayoade plays Pierre Ballester.”

      I would pay double to see that.

  • Simon

    “I feel like eating is the primary basis of happiness so I’m clearly not really comfortable giving that up yet.”

    The more I learn about TP, the more I like him. Sounds very well grounded to me.

    • Michele

      Yeah he seems really balanced.

      • Simon

        No I’m old enough to be his grandfather. :) Consider it a paternal interest. I like him because I share his love of food but mostly he comes across as being true to himself. I’m sure the past 15 months or so have given him plenty of time to ponder about what matters.

    • velocite

      Is he joking? Is this approach remotely compatible with being a pro cyclist? How many kilos extra does he carry because of his love of food?

  • Blake

    “Gaviria was given a textbook leadout from his teammates” Did anyone at CT watch the stage? Because I’ve never seen “Only have three riders at the front, let other teams control the entire proceedings, get your sprinter boxed in, and have your leadout man sprint for the win” in any leadout text books…

    • Dave

      And it’s also by no means his biggest result either.

      That would have been his breakout performances at the Tour de San Luis where he earned himself an Etixx-Quickstep contract and handed Mark Cavendish a seat next to the exit sign.

      • Blake

        Also love the description of Cavendish as a wheel sweep. I’d pay good money to see Cav’s reaction when the ds gave that assignment.

        • Dave

          He’s on the way out there, so I don’t imagine he would even care.

    • Gavin Adkins

      I agree, that description is not accurate and does tend to diminish Gaviria’s result which is pretty impressive. Looking forward to see Ewan and Gaviria going head to head though.

  • Dave

    Dear CT, please dump that intrusive advertising banner from the top of your screen or allow it to be dismissed when viewing the page on an iPad.

    • Michele

      Get a real tablet [kidding] :)

      • Andy B

        IPad Pro?

        • Michele

          Will just make the banner bigger. And probably make the page load slower. :)

    • Sean

      The ads aren’t that bad. You can dismiss the top one most of the time.

    • You can press the ‘x’ on the top right corner and it will disappear. Advertising is what pays for all the content you get here for free. I wish there was another way, but unfortunately there isn’t.

      • Dave

        I’m well aware that they are necessary, but if you want to retain readers you should make sure they aren’t too intrusive and can be dismissed.

        That X button isn’t working on iOS devices. I was curious enough to try it on a couple of others just in case it was my iPad at fault, but it’s not.

        • Wish I was on the bike…

          I agree Dave. I mentioned this previously on this site, re iPhone.

  • Steve

    How’s that Paddy Bevin hey! Big future

  • dsd74

    BTW, what is wrong with bigger cyclists climbing well? There have been plenty of examples of bigger guys who kept up very well in the mountains (though never having Pantani-like accelerations); yes, perhaps they were doped to the gills, but so were their scrawny climber compatriots. Should we also be suspicious when little guys keep up in wind-swept Belgian classics or races with lots of cobbles?

    • dsd74

      And yes, I am tall myself and way back when I raced, climbed a lot better than people would assume, so I take it personally :)
      Now I am more in the Phinney camp (when it comes to eating that is…)

  • Derek Maher

    Enjoyed the womens Lotto tour video.
    Dumoulin hung in well against Aru to hold the red jersey.Tom is shaping up to be a top all rounder getting rid of a lot of top body mass has worked for him.

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