Tour de San Luis 2014 - Stage 6
  • dynatella

    Phil has proven that he is an extremely poor judge of character (in his book) and people still look to him as a yardstick for doping morality? He still believes Tommy Doper wasn’t doping? Or just “this time”? Phil is making himself out to be the idiot on this stage. Apparently it takes almost a year to figure out who and how much to bribe.

    • Shane Stokes

      He makes extremely clear he is talking about this time. Also that he accepts he doped in the past. Claims he was bribed to say what he did is pretty low.

      • dynatella

        I don’t mean TDoper bribed Phil. I mean that it took 10 months to for TD et. al. to figure out who and how much to bribe for the official reason to be publicly stated as tainted supplements.

        But hey, thanks for jumping to an incorrect assumption and calling me low for it, class act you are.

  • Aaron McNany

    The means a lot coming from Phil–good to read!

    • david__g

      It merely means he’s adjusted his moral compass because it’s happening to a friend and colleague.

    • Dave

      Indeed.

      It’s the best account we have so far to show the depth of the pro-doping culture at Slipstream.

  • vorbau

    “In a September 2012, online-forum post, Garmin–Sharp team manager and owner Jonathan Vaughters stated that Danielson had used blood doping products to increase oxygen delivery to his muscles”. TD cheated clean riders out of a career. In other words. Fuck him!

  • Berne Shaw

    I am with Phil also. This doping dog don’t hunt, it would be idiotic for him to have resumed doping with all he has been thru. I say give him the
    benefit of the doubt on this one.

    • Dave

      I’m not sure why Phil needs to weigh in on this when it is still going through the disciplinary process, including TD being given multiple extensions to scrabble around for a defence instead of facing the music.

      Other sports which actually care about their public profile would fine or suspend him for bringing the sport into disrepute with his interference in an ongoing disciplinary process, but not cycling.

    • lowlander

      “it would be idiotic for him to have resumed doping with all he has been thru”

      True. But then again, TD is in the running for being the poster boy for idiotic behavior.

    • Legstrong

      According to Steve Tilford (on his blog), Tom is a tool. So he was like… YOLO!

    • H.E. Pennypacker

      Why?

    • Neuron1

      For a guy who sees doping behind every tree, particularly if there is an Italian involved, this is a very interesting response. Read the following: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/features/lees-lowdown-tom-danielson-doping-and-the-pragmatism-of-it-all/

    • pedr09

      I’m sure we all remember a guy who we couldn’t believe would ever take PEDs because he had cancer and ”all he went thru”… Just because it looks like utter madness, doesn’t mean they didn’t do it.

    • SMT

      Because Danielson is Anglo-Germanic?

  • bikeinbc

    Maybe this is a false positive for Tom, but he made lots of $ and a great career based on a bunch of false negatives and I did not see him (or Gaimon) crying about that. Tom wants his reputation back? That train left the station long ago. Without years of doping would anyone even know his name? He may now get the sanction (instead of the 6 month off season slap on the wrist) he should have in the first place – for his multiple years of doping. We know there have been other athletes wronged by false positives, but I’d say riders Tom cheated in his career might just feel a bit righted by this one.

  • david__g

    Funny how Phil Gaimon is so anti-doping in his book aboyut people he never met, or didn’t know, or lost races to, but as soon as it’s a friend or team mate he changes his tune.

    • zosim

      It’s like lots of things; people tend to be hypocrites when things are close to home but from afar things are far more black and white.

      • david__g

        I mean, Gaimon has form – he’s not fussed about working for Vaughters, or when he was team mates with Dekker, or Hesjdal.

        When former dopers say “it was a part of the sport”, it now seems like anti-dopers sympathizing and excusing former dopers is just “part of the sport”.

  • Mark M.

    We’ll ignore the fact Tommy T doped his entire career, cheated on (then left) his wife, lied over and over again, & has changed his story about this issue more than once.
    Fuck you Tommy T.
    Go away. No one wants you backs except the star fuckers, and fauxperts.

  • zosim

    “Statistics-wise, if we believe that some people get away with doping, the way testing works we can also believe that there are tests that are positive that aren’t. I think that is sort of like basic maths of the odds.”

    I don’t think that’s how stats work Phil. He ingested something, knowingly or not, and he ended up with a positive result. If you don’t like strict liability then probably professional sport isn’t for you.

    “This doping dog don’t hunt, it would be idiotic for him to have resumed doping with all he has been thru.”

    Nobody dopes expecting to be caught. It’s like saying that Femke had too much to lose the early stages of her career to engage in mechanical cheating but again, she didn’t expect to be caught.

  • H.E. Pennypacker

    “Hi, Credibility? Yeah, this is Phil. I don’t think I need you anymore, so I’m going to go ahead and toss you out the window if that’s alright. Thanks.” That said, I agree with him that the lives they are forced to live as competitors are absurd. But nobody’s forcing them to compete. Their predecessors put them in this position, and modern riders choose to compete anyway. It sucks, but they knew that going in. Retirement must come as a relief to some.

    • david__g

      But they’re mates! Mates never dope! Mates take spiked and tainted supplements! Only those Italians actually *dope* dope!

  • Andy B

    I’m not sure if all you guys will agree up there on your high horses.. But surely living and training with a guy you would get a pretty good idea of whether they were doping

    In old stories about doping everyone seemed to know others were on the gear

    I believe you Phil

    • H.E. Pennypacker

      First, people can, and do, hide massively destructive drug, gambling, and pornography addictions from their own spouses in seemingly great marriages. And you’re telling me someone “surely” couldn’t successfully hide doping from a roommate? It’s not a question of anyone being up on their high horse. It’s a matter of learning from past experience in this arena.

      Second, the reason it was obvious to everyone back then was because it was so blatant. All indications are that methods these days (along with results) are much more refined and subtle. You’ll also recall that “in old stories” everyone may have known others were on the gear, but everyone was also keeping quiet about it, claiming they knew nothing, or denying it on their own behalf and on behalf of their friends. Makes this seem all too familiar, doesn’t it?

      • Andy B

        For sure, its always the same story over and over and in the end they are usually guilty but throwing comments about tommy d being a shit bloke etc isn’t helping anyone.. Phil would know him better than any of us so its only fair that when he voices his own opinion we listen without throwing shit on him.. I think his done his fair share for advocating clean racing

        i’ll admit when I first read the story my first thought was “here we go again” but having someone weigh in on the story and provide some more information on it shouldn’t mean he is targeted for having an opinion.

        I think the whole process of leaking and handling positive tests in cycling needs revising, it could so easily destroy someone’s entire career for a minor discrepancy or detection of something

        Having these same stories come out where we are all just presuming fault and everyone is a doper does no good for the sport..
        as much as other sports seem to have their heads in the sand I get a bit sick of people that aren’t into cycling accusing everyone of being a doper and these investigations seemingly taking years with no real conclusion.

        No wonder they have trouble getting sponsors with cynical fans like these, if I was in the position to be throwing a large amount of money toward a sport I’d go somewhere with a better public image

        Being c*nts isn’t helping anyone.

        • Dave

          People also said LA was a great bloke until he was safely out of the way.

          • Andy B

            I wouldn’t know what type of bloke either of them are.. because I don’t know them
            so I wont make comment based on other peoples views.

          • jules

            it doesn’t matter. being a bit of a dick doesn’t make you a doper.

            Gaimon’s point about tainted samples is legit, I suspect. whether it explains Tommy D’s positive is another matter.

  • Dave

    Phil, tell your mate Tommy that if it’s really true there’s a simple solution to the whole affair – tell the world which supplement it was so a sample from the manufacturer’s stock can be tested.

    Reputable manufacturers of this sort of stuff (I’m sure an upstanding anti-doping team like Slipstream wouldn’t use a dodgy manufacturer) will always have some stock on hand from every production batch they’ve run explicitly for quality control purposes.

  • Tim David

    Ah, remember the CT forum before we went tabloid? Those were the days…….

    • H.E. Pennypacker

      You can’t be serious. A long-time clean cyclist with arguably the most credibility on the matter (for an American) comes out to speak on behalf of a teammate with arguably the least credibility on the matter, and that constitutes “tabloid” to you? Relevant issues of the day are not tabloid. The ongoing scourge of our sport is not tabloid. Not discussing these things openly is how we got here to begin with. I for one welcome the heavy coverage of doping and doping-related discussion–even if I would respectfully contend that Phil is dead wrong on this one.

      • Tim David

        Sure, noble sentiment, but I think most posters now seem to be happy to shout their own opinion at each other, and that’s become dull.

        • H.E. Pennypacker

          If you’re right, then noble sentiments are all we have left. Making them all the more important. :-)

  • jules

    we don’t know if he doped (this time) or not.

    these statements by Phil Gaimon are interesting and provide some context. but even Phil doesn’t know for sure.

    the problem is that people want certainty – Tom doped. Tom didn’t dope.

    we don’t really know.

  • Der Flahute

    it’s called a relapse. & yes, Tommy D’s career is now over

  • Browcalif

    ..”But all that really means is your pee is more concentrated.” the test are a relative measure. You cannot delete steroid metabolite (yes others can be) Oh I took a chem classes too and no chem degree. I must also be an expert. Was Phil picked up as PR move when Danielson was let go? If so not a good move to retain a contract. Wait… didn’t Zirbel roll on folks to reduce his ban? Sounds like a clean rider just like Danielson.

  • Matt DeMaere

    Its problematic when DHEA is legal for sale in the US and therefore quite possibly found as a constituent of multi-component supplements. “It was in a supplement” seems to be increasingly used as an explanation from athletes (various sports) and it could be true for at least some of them. But hey…

    The question is, as a part of a daily regimen how many bottles of powder and pills has such an athlete got lined up on their kitchen counter? Ultimately, sport should be about health. Yes, injuries and prolonged effects on the body colour the long-term, but if you’re popping a lot of nonsense into yourself, besides good nutritional meals and smart training, you’re still walking a bit of the path that eventually reaches the land of doping.

    So, how much introspection do these athletes do?

  • traffic_robot

    First, it’s good that Gaimon feels free enough to speak his mind about a former teammate. However, we’re not hearing this same level of support from other riders, and certainly not from JV. It makes me think TD either went back on the sauce or made a genuine mistake but didn’t follow team protocol about supplements (total speculation). The deafening silence otherwise from the rest of Cannondale reminds me of what happened to Leipheimer after his admission; doesn’t seem like the team (or the rest of the peloton) were too heartbroken for Tommy.

    • jules

      JV set up his team partly as a vehicle for reformed ex-dopers to salvage their careers. the ‘ex-doper’ part was always going to be tricky. JV can’t credibly come out and blindly defend Danielson – or he’ll risk appearing as an apologist for dopers and doping.

      I think JV has approached his team ownership judiciously and credibly. his team is no Astana or Tinkoff.

      the fact that many weren’t feeling sorry for Danielson probably has more to do with his prior crimes than any (potential) more current ones.

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